that first message wasn't handwringing at all. they just can't tell until they see the app. if they're going to put in the effort to review the canon and personality and shit anyway, they may as well do it from an app perspective and give you the chance to prove it's acceptable.
they may not have said it in so many words but it's not like they were like "ummm idk maaaaybe you can always try??? i'm just not sure i can help youjoihrw" that's handwringing. they were straight up "i can't tell from this, app so i can tell."
you're the one whining that you didn't get a straight yes or no
"well, go to the trouble of writing an app so I can arbitrarily decide whether or not to accept it afterwards"
unless the mods meant it more as "if the app is convincing enough I'll bend the rules for you", either way they should just come out and say it instead of this wishy-washy shit
except that's exactly the mod's answer? "i dunno, maybe." is exactly what they said according to op. it's a yes or no question. all they needed to say was yes or no. yes or no answers are good. straight and clear answers are good.
yes, you can apply for this character but you will be accepted depending on the quality of the app.
no, you cannot apply for this character and we won't accept any apps for them.
how is that so hard. don't waste someone's time by saying "maybe yes maybe no" that's such a flimsy answer.
seriously. most apps require several meaty paragraphs, it's a huge time sink that can take hours depending on the place and the app requirements. OP is right to be irritated, especially if being encouraged only results in a 'not enough canon can't app the character lol' rejection from the rest of the mods.
the way I see it, the mods actual answer is, "yes, you can app, but you will be accepted depending on the quality of the app including the quality of 'whether this app convinces us there is enough material for a playable character according to whatever our game standards are'" which is different from "the quality of the app generally/normal app standards". The mods are willing to consider it, but after reading OP's app they might well decide that OP doesn't make use of minimal canon in a sufficient way, and they don't want to deal with a tantrum of "but but but you said it was enough canon to app from!!!!!!" if that turns out to be the case.
It's a frustrating answer, because yeah, you might do all that work and not get in, which is what OP was asking to avoid, but it doesn't seem hand-wringing to me. The mods don't have all the information, so "maybe" is the most straightforward answer they've got.
I get where you're coming from, but I still disagree that was their most straightforward answer on hand.
> after reading OP's app they might well decide that OP doesn't make use of minimal canon in a sufficient way
in my opinion, that's a "yes, you can apply for this character but you will be accepted depending on the quality of the app" and that's all they need to say as an answer.
> they don't want to deal with a tantrum of "but but but you said it was enough canon to app from!!!!!!" if that turns out to be the case
the answer here should be that the application didn't show that the player could make use of the existing canon and is therefore rejected.
wtf, you don't CONVINCE mods that a character has enough backstory. it either has it or it doesn't, depending on how much headcanon they accept in their particular game.
i would understand an unsure answer if this was something like idk apping a character that can have difficulty dealing with the setting (eg look at the villain talk in the quiet game thread) because then the player should show how they would deal with that, what their plans are, etc in their app.
but enough personality/backstory isn't a "it depends" question. it's a factual one. especially if the mod(s) aren't canon blind.
"factual" questions can have borderline cases, though. and in borderline cases it has to depend on SOMETHING, and I'd rather that something be "you made a good argument for it" than some other arbitrary factor. and even if the mods aren't canonblind, they've probably thought less about the character in question than the player. I can imagine a lot of minor characters from canons I love that I'd be *dubious* about having enough canon if I were a mod, but willing to consider the possibility that someone else could extrapolate more from canon than I immediately think of.
all that said, yeah, the fact that I'm rephrasing what I think they meant means the mods weren't maximally transparent, but 1) we've been over "mods aren't paid for customer service work" wank before, and 2) given the very brief and casual tone, I suspect OP is paraphrasing at least a little, and are perhaps also not being maximally charitable, given their understandable irritation with the situation
i've seen bordeline cases of stuff, that's true, for example arguing if a power is magic/spiritual or simple life energy, or if certain creatures count a summons, companions or what.
i don't think backstory fits that but i don't want to start an argument about extrapolation. "is this thing ok to bring to the game" is an answer you need before writing you app, be canon point, powers, pets or enough backstory.
when you have a complicated case, the player asks on the faq. mods ask them to ellaborate, i see it all the time, players tldr about their canons and the mods answer "yes that's fine" or "no you can't do that" once they have more info.
if op has a difficult character then mods should've said so and discuss how to go about it with them, not say "idk app and we'll see"
When I was a mod I gave a player a "maybe" answer once on appability of a minor character and this was exactly the reasoning.
Other anons in this thread seem to think that mods should be bending over backwards to give a solid answer to a player who may not even decide to app in the end anyway. Judging this kind of stuff is exactly what apps are for: where they're going to get all the information they need laid out in a structured way and have a system in place to discuss it with each other.
but... in this context, extrapolation doesn't matter. freshing the character out doesn't matter. for app quality later? sure, they show how well you understand the canon.
but what decides if a character has ENOUGH CANON to be appable in the first place is, guess what, CANON. it's not arbitrary. you, as mod, have a series of (private) guidelines and preferences that you'll try to find in that character. if certain character is a true 50-50 when you'll have to decide what to do with cases like that based on what canon showed. if you find yourself needing a player to expand on it then chances are they don't have enough canon.
imagine if someome writes a super tldr app for john mcdoe and you accept it, but then they drop and a second player tries. their app isn't as long, they are the kind of person that sticks to what is on the screen. it is not bad app. what then? no extrapolation. suddenly john mcdoe doesn't enough canon then?
no, dude. john mcdoe is either appable, or he isn't. period. it's a decision that mods take based on canon material and not what a player can tldr on an app.
a lot of the borderline cases that I, personally, would consider appable depend heavily on extrapolation like so
- character X has limited screentime, but enough to see basic interactions/demeanor but not much else - character X has known historical origins that we see in no detail for them personally, but that we see in the context of other characters in the same/similar circumstances - some thoughtful consideration of how those circumstances would have shaped a person into the tidbits that are seen on screen for X can put together a fairly thorough whole picture
but, crucially, until actually reading the fucking app that does that legwork, a mod doesn't necessarily know that McDoe "is appable or he isn't. period."
and if I got a second app for the same character that wasn't "bad" in the sense of obvious errors but didn't have any extrapolation, I'd still reject it for being a shallow/incomplete character even if I didn't use the exact phrase "not enough canon"
sorry but basic canon familiarity does not equal perfect information about how a player understands a character or how they'd play them and whether that understanding from canon reflects a whole/coherent person, and apps aren't perfect either but they're a lot better than just guessing
Most games with headcanon rules have it phrased something like "no more than 3/4 headcanon". They don't give a set number, because they can't, and that isn't how apps are judged anyway. You're talking like mods read apps over counting out percentages or marking for a grade. One character might have had 20 mins in a movie while another features repeatedly in a 3 novel book series, yet the latter doesn't have enough to write a decent, well-filled out app about while the movie character manages fine. Mods do their best to be as objective as possible, to lay out their app requirements as clearly as possible and state why revisions or rejections happen, but if anyone here thinks it's a purely objective black-and-white exercise then they're delusional.
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wankgate2018-04-01 12:13 pm
no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-04-12 08:39 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-04-12 08:46 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-04-12 08:56 pm (UTC)(link)they may not have said it in so many words but it's not like they were like "ummm idk maaaaybe you can always try??? i'm just not sure i can help youjoihrw" that's handwringing. they were straight up "i can't tell from this, app so i can tell."
you're the one whining that you didn't get a straight yes or no
no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-04-12 09:16 pm (UTC)(link)da
(Anonymous) 2018-04-12 09:16 pm (UTC)(link)i can write the most amazing app ever and it can ALL be headcanon for the guy standing on the corner on episode 3
i'm with op in this one.
Re: da
(Anonymous) 2018-04-12 09:22 pm (UTC)(link)unless the mods meant it more as "if the app is convincing enough I'll bend the rules for you", either way they should just come out and say it instead of this wishy-washy shit
ayrt
(Anonymous) 2018-04-12 09:23 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-04-12 09:25 pm (UTC)(link)da
except that's exactly the mod's answer? "i dunno, maybe." is exactly what they said according to op. it's a yes or no question. all they needed to say was yes or no. yes or no answers are good. straight and clear answers are good.
yes, you can apply for this character but you will be accepted depending on the quality of the app.
no, you cannot apply for this character and we won't accept any apps for them.
how is that so hard. don't waste someone's time by saying "maybe yes maybe no" that's such a flimsy answer.
dda
(Anonymous) 2018-04-12 10:26 pm (UTC)(link)da
(Anonymous) 2018-04-12 10:27 pm (UTC)(link)It's a frustrating answer, because yeah, you might do all that work and not get in, which is what OP was asking to avoid, but it doesn't seem hand-wringing to me. The mods don't have all the information, so "maybe" is the most straightforward answer they've got.
ayrt
(Anonymous) 2018-04-12 10:34 pm (UTC)(link)> after reading OP's app they might well decide that OP doesn't make use of minimal canon in a sufficient way
in my opinion, that's a "yes, you can apply for this character but you will be accepted depending on the quality of the app" and that's all they need to say as an answer.
> they don't want to deal with a tantrum of "but but but you said it was enough canon to app from!!!!!!" if that turns out to be the case
the answer here should be that the application didn't show that the player could make use of the existing canon and is therefore rejected.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-04-12 11:37 pm (UTC)(link)i would understand an unsure answer if this was something like idk apping a character that can have difficulty dealing with the setting (eg look at the villain talk in the quiet game thread) because then the player should show how they would deal with that, what their plans are, etc in their app.
but enough personality/backstory isn't a "it depends" question. it's a factual one. especially if the mod(s) aren't canon blind.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-04-13 03:44 am (UTC)(link)all that said, yeah, the fact that I'm rephrasing what I think they meant means the mods weren't maximally transparent, but 1) we've been over "mods aren't paid for customer service work" wank before, and 2) given the very brief and casual tone, I suspect OP is paraphrasing at least a little, and are perhaps also not being maximally charitable, given their understandable irritation with the situation
ayrt
(Anonymous) 2018-04-13 05:18 am (UTC)(link)i don't think backstory fits that but i don't want to start an argument about extrapolation. "is this thing ok to bring to the game" is an answer you need before writing you app, be canon point, powers, pets or enough backstory.
when you have a complicated case, the player asks on the faq. mods ask them to ellaborate, i see it all the time, players tldr about their canons and the mods answer "yes that's fine" or "no you can't do that" once they have more info.
if op has a difficult character then mods should've said so and discuss how to go about it with them, not say "idk app and we'll see"
+1
(Anonymous) 2018-04-13 05:28 am (UTC)(link)Other anons in this thread seem to think that mods should be bending over backwards to give a solid answer to a player who may not even decide to app in the end anyway. Judging this kind of stuff is exactly what apps are for: where they're going to get all the information they need laid out in a structured way and have a system in place to discuss it with each other.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-04-13 06:47 am (UTC)(link)but what decides if a character has ENOUGH CANON to be appable in the first place is, guess what, CANON. it's not arbitrary. you, as mod, have a series of (private) guidelines and preferences that you'll try to find in that character. if certain character is a true 50-50 when you'll have to decide what to do with cases like that based on what canon showed. if you find yourself needing a player to expand on it then chances are they don't have enough canon.
imagine if someome writes a super tldr app for john mcdoe and you accept it, but then they drop and a second player tries. their app isn't as long, they are the kind of person that sticks to what is on the screen. it is not bad app. what then? no extrapolation. suddenly john mcdoe doesn't enough canon then?
no, dude. john mcdoe is either appable, or he isn't. period. it's a decision that mods take based on canon material and not what a player can tldr on an app.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-04-13 06:59 am (UTC)(link)a lot of the borderline cases that I, personally, would consider appable depend heavily on extrapolation like so
- character X has limited screentime, but enough to see basic interactions/demeanor but not much else
- character X has known historical origins that we see in no detail for them personally, but that we see in the context of other characters in the same/similar circumstances
- some thoughtful consideration of how those circumstances would have shaped a person into the tidbits that are seen on screen for X can put together a fairly thorough whole picture
but, crucially, until actually reading the fucking app that does that legwork, a mod doesn't necessarily know that McDoe "is appable or he isn't. period."
and if I got a second app for the same character that wasn't "bad" in the sense of obvious errors but didn't have any extrapolation, I'd still reject it for being a shallow/incomplete character even if I didn't use the exact phrase "not enough canon"
sorry but basic canon familiarity does not equal perfect information about how a player understands a character or how they'd play them and whether that understanding from canon reflects a whole/coherent person, and apps aren't perfect either but they're a lot better than just guessing
no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-04-13 03:14 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-04-13 09:41 am (UTC)(link)