wankgate | The Fifty-Somethingeth

I'm pretty sure that Gilgamesh going on about how it's a woman's joy to be violated, or Shirou saying that a girl getting sexually harassed could be a good thing is gross. Always.

I don't see how that is open to any form of interpretation. You can disagree with the crit all you want, but the only time I see "gross" used in that crit when it's completely appropriate to use it.

Well that Shirou thing is actually a mistranslation.

Gilgamesh thing sure isn't though.

tbf, i heard that the infamous shirou line was actually a mistranslation. it had something to do with how casual slang (the kind of shit popular with teenagers) can read like the complete opposite if you're not careful/aware of context. granted, shirou still says and does a lot of gross things, but since i heard that from someone i trust, i'm willing to give the character a pass on that one scene

Interesting, I've never heard that before. Thank goodness.

Regardless, it doesn't make quibbling with the usage of "gross" any less stupid.

I'm like 80% certain I'm the person that anon heard about it from

It's factual that it's a mistranslation, there was a forum thread where the translator copped to it. All that about how the mistranslation happened is just me speculating based on my understanding of Japanese. I haven't actually seen the original Japanese of that scene.

Just to be clear.

Gross is still an opinion, which is subjective by nature, regardless of whether the majority of the waking world agrees with you. It's still just an opinion.

What Gil says and does is gross. Someone else may not think as such, whether you wish to associate with that person or not.

Okay, level with me here:

You're going to argue about someone calling blatant rape threats and misogyny "gross" because someone out there might think rape threats and blatant misogyny are A-OKAY? Do you want a word more worthy of an extended pinky, like "reprehensible" or "completely morally bankrupt," or are you trying to excuse this behavior?

To be honest, either way you're showing your ass, I'm just curious as to whether you're a disgusting human being or just an obnoxiously pedantic white knight.

Level with you? I'm acknowledging there are people that think that scene is "awesome", just as there are people regard that scene as "disgusting". Regardless of how they come to such conclusions, those people do exist. That's fact. Apparently a horrible fact to you, but a fact nonetheless.

What that has to do with me whiteknighting, showing my ass, or gleaming that I'm a disgusting human being from maybe four comments on an internet blog site is zero. Gross is not a fact, it is an adjective used to define an opinion. And seeing as you're annoyed by me pointing this out, I'll bid you good day, bow out this discourse, and watch on to the rest of this mild trainwreck.

personally, I'd argue that Gilgamesh's behavior does not make the VN itself gross on a meta level; his behavior is not presented in a positive light within the narrative. having gross villains does not make a creative work gross. you'd be better off arguing that Shirou's (non-mistranslated) sexism makes the VN objectively gross instead.

given that Gilgamesh is also repeatedly presented as a huge badass and a hero to be admired on some level despite his moral bankruptcy, unlike the VN's other resident rapist Shinji who is repeatedly treated as pathetic scum by the narrative, yeah I think you have an argument that this mega-badass hero beloved by both creators and fans gleefully talking about raping one of the heroines is part of what makes the VN itself gross on a meta level.

I don't really care if you agree or not, since yeah he is a villain and most people can agree on that at least. just pointing out why some people find Gilgamesh kind of gross on a meta level despite him being a villain.

you do know you can be a fan of characters who aren't good and always PC right? as long as you don't excuse the actions and writing of the character (like saying "oh gilgamesh is such a good guy, he was right to say those things") and become an apologist then it's perfectly fine to like characters that are jackasses. fans of Gilgamesh who say he was right for saying all that shit are gross, but saying every fan of Gilgamesh approves of his actions is very inaccurate.

i don't know how its been since you read FSN, but you need to seriously reread it. Gilgamesh is never presented as someone to be admired. He presents himself as someone to be admired, but the narrative never approves of his actions and never says he was right. The same goes for Shirou, in that the narrative never says he is right for thinking of Saber as just a girl who can't fight in the beginning of the VN. If anything the narrative proves time and time again that he was wrong.

(also where exactly are you getting "shirou is a rapist" from)

I'm going to agree with most of this but I don't think Shirou ever truly thought Saber was somebody who couldn't fight because she's a girl. He just uses it as a weak excuse to protect Saber from getting hurt again and because he fell in love with her. He has no problems with letting Saber or any of the other girls fight during all the other scenarios and routes.

actually, the reason for shirou's "girls shouldn't fight!" attitude and why it's only present in the fate route is answered in this interview (http://www.tsukikan.com/misc/nasu-kinoko-takeuchi-takashi-urobuchi-gen-special-forum.html)

Nasu: Just like Urobuchi-san said, it's difficult to call the relationship between Shirou and Saber a relationship between a man and a woman. Saber has fought for a long time as the ruler of Britain, but then turned into a girl all of a sudden and fell in love with Shirou. It's pretty ridiculous when you think about it. But I really wanted to push it towards that sort of boy-meets-girl story. So as a last resort, I had Shirou continually say things to her like "But you're a girl," and "Girls aren't supposed to fight," in order to remind the users that "she is really a girl." It's like the author's actually the one trying to convince Saber that she's a girl... I feel like I could have written it a lot better now, but that was the best I could do at the time.

Ahh sorry then, I haven't gotten into the side materials yet.

Gilgamesh is certainly a badass, but I wouldn't say he's meant to be admired on any level. He's basically walking proof that the concept of 'hero' is a broken one.

where in the world is he propped up as something to be admired? his actions are condoned nowhere in the narrative, and especially not his comments to Saber. plus, you realize people can like a villain as a character without thinking everything (or anything) they do is right or justified, right?

The Fifty-Somethingeth

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